Comments on: When It's More than Motivation

By: Jody Tobler

Jody Tobler — Mon, 19 Apr 2010 20:49:54 +0000

Joseph,
Thank you so much for re-addressing this issue. I believe you did a phenominal job of both addressing the educator’s concerns and using good crucial conversational skills is doing so. Your ability to demonstrate mutual purpose while not allowing yourself to tell a story showed compassion and expertise.

Thank you, again, for your good example,
Jody Tobler

By: Joseph Grenny

Joseph Grenny — Fri, 09 Apr 2010 01:49:20 +0000

I guess I see it differently, Mark. While I think the way “Educator” expressed concerns could have been more effective, the central point about attributing all to “motivation” to quickly was right on target. I think attributing Educator’s concerns to “laziness” or clever use of “vocabulary skills”–aka manipulation–might be inaccurate and a “villain story.”
I agree with you that it would be unwise to not consider motivation problems in addition to ability–but in my view my mistake was a mistake! Thanks for the comment.
@Mark

By: Mark

Mark — Thu, 08 Apr 2010 01:32:55 +0000

I respect your humility in responding to the angry Educator with the tools that you prescribe! However I believe most readers will see the obvious. The “Educator” like many professionals has learned to use his or her vocabulary skills very well. They offer elaborate justifications for their own personal short comings, bad attitudes or just laziness. The diatribe of excuses and anger is a tired list of “poor me’s” that we have all heard many times before. Most of the statements (excuses) are personal opinions, Union banner phrases or just plain whining about things we all deal with in life. This is a great example of a victim story that people practice and perfect to gain sympathy and avoid responsibility. I have worked with an individual for many years that has mastered these techniques to the point that he has lost virtually everything that he truly valued. Sometimes you just have to call it what it is, otherwise your enabling.

By: Joseph Grenny

Joseph Grenny — Thu, 08 Apr 2010 00:31:49 +0000

I've certainly seen this in technicolor first hand recently. My daughter just finished a 4-month internship as a Health Education teacher in our local junior high school. Her eyes were very much opened to the complex array of personal challenges her seven classes of students brought with them to school--every kind of socioeconomic, abuse, sibling, physical and other challenge you can imagine. She worried herself into a dither trying to make sure she just had lesson plans then discovered how challenging it was to adapt those plans to the individualized needs of hundreds of kids. When you add to that the myriad bureaucratic requirements a teacher must address--it's quite a load. @Peter

By: Joseph Grenny

Joseph Grenny — Thu, 08 Apr 2010 00:27:15 +0000

Good points, Jean. And while I completely agree that parental influence is a huge determinant of education outcomes, the question I hoped to respond to had to do with influencing teachers to participate in the improvement process. I point that out because when we apply our “Influencer” model–it’s always important to keep the “actor” we’re trying to influence clear. My response–like yours–would be different if I were trying to influence parents vs. teachers. Both can play a role in improvement–and yet this question focused on the teacher as the actor.

@Jean Tobin

By: Peter

Peter — Wed, 07 Apr 2010 20:35:51 +0000

I am responding to Joseph’s remarks and the concerned educator who took him to task. I cannot speak for the american education system but I am am certain there are similarities. I was a teacher for a very short while and the reason I left was the structure. I did not have the time nor the flexibility to teach the way I felt i should be able to. Many years later i returned to education but as a business superintendant.
I was able to observe all of the changes that had taken place in 30 years and was floored to witness the degree to which structure had taken over and just how little time teachers and school principals as well could devote to anythjing other then the classroom exercises that are mandated and the many discipline and health related issues that schools now have to manage. Children on various prescribed drugs ,psychological
issues requiring intervention,the insane need for protocls and administrative procedures with rules and time frames for appeals,and the list goes on. My point is that we expect teacher’s to be a lot more than teacher’s! We expext them to know and do both the workof a teacher and the work of a social worker and to make things a little more challenging we tie one of their hands behind their back! The issues in our schools today are very complex and require experts in many domains to succeed.Motivation and engagement come from passion and if that flame is not permitted to burn the results will be predictable.Teachers were I live are well paid as are the administrators, so the issue is not money (perhaps it is in the US) The issue in my humble opinion is freedom to teach by being able to make different choices on what gets taught when and how it get’s taught. Remove creativity from the classroom and you have mediocrity. An eternal optimist. thanks.

By: Lisa

Lisa — Wed, 07 Apr 2010 19:39:53 +0000

I am sorry, but under pay is not what I consider a gym teacher making 95,000 a year for high schoolers. Our state pays teachers well. There are a lot of “bad” teachers which are under 10 year and can’t get rid of them. If you figure in holidays, vacations and summers off, not a bad deal. We all have pressures at our jobs. You sound like teachers are the only ones that have work. Every other career is below you.

By: Elizabeth Link

Elizabeth Link — Wed, 07 Apr 2010 18:18:06 +0000

Thank you to all for your responses. This has given a great deal of food for thought. First, I want to thank the educator challenging Joseph on his response. This took courage to challenge the expert! Second, I want to thank Joseph for having the humility to recognize the opportunity to improve his response. Third, thank you to all taking the time to make comments, which takes this issue in several directions.
I am in the health care field, not education, but I recognize that we are all educators, whether it be to our children, patients, clients or general public. We all have the opportunity and responsibility to educate by sharing our knowledge. The difference is that educators are trained in educational process. This is a very special skill/art and some do it better than others, but I believe anyone entering this field, initially enters with a passion. Unfortunately this can sometimes be tempered by the frustrations encountered, whether these are administrative road blocks or limits of the students/families encountered.
I myself am passionate about environmental health. I have attended many seminars on this subject but become frustrated when I can not stimulate change within my community to address these concerns. Some times I do not attend a seminar solely because the frustration of being powerless to implement change are more than I am willing to encounter/tolerate at that moment in life. This could be percieved by some as being unmotivated, but it is far from the truth; it is self preservation. It is important to balance motivation with ability.
As I said, I am not a teacher but I am an educator when ever the opportunity arises. This allows me to pass on my knowledge to others who, hopefully, will take up the causes which I am passionate about and I can live vicariously through their accomplishments.
Bravo to the teachers!

By: Beth

Beth — Wed, 07 Apr 2010 17:40:40 +0000

Dear Joseph,

Thank you for the honest feedback to this gentlemen’s letter. At first I was angered by his “attack” of you, but then your leadership shined very brightly and showed me that I was wrong for creating a story. To see someone such as yourself admit when your wrong and not always use the model perfectly made me feel the need to double check my own leadership and revisit my mistakes. Thank you for being a great example of how true leaders should be.

By: Ralph

Ralph — Wed, 07 Apr 2010 17:38:44 +0000

This was an interesting exchange. Concerned Educator (CE) came forward with what could be considered a victim-villain-helpless (VVH) story and it felt like Joseph bought it. There is evidence in the original email that CE responded to that motivation was not the only issue and the book is all about that. Jeff seemed to call out the VVH story, but included a “whining” appellation that would detract from safety.

So, here we are, all life-long students of Crucial Conversations – a key component of influence, right? The learning opportunity seems to be pretty important. The scenario we have just painted is that: 1) we have made a statement (Joseph’s original post) that is good and well-intended and probably accurate, 2) someone read into it a generalized attach on teachers, 3) we all know some teachers that are awesome and we don’t want to offend them, and 4) many of us also are working 10 hour days plus doing 10-20 hours/week on the side in what could be considered rough environments. There is more that could be said, but these seem to me like such common points.

Really, isn’t everyone right to a point in this scenario? To me the critical question is “how do we respond after point 3 above, in a way that does not dilute the point that needs to be made?” I think Joseph tried to do that, but seemed to beat himself up to a point that his third-to-the-last paragraph (the “I’d be less than honest if I didn’t add…” part) seemed watered-down.

Isn’t life wonderful that we can think through all of this and sort out how we approach such situations! Being programmers of our scripts and thinkers of our thoughts rocks!